My 11 year old spends 50% of his time with an anti-science and anti-vaccine family. Single parent me (in Ohio) doesn’t have a lot of support when I’ve tried to help fight some of those thoughts he’s been brainwashed with in the name of religion. I’m christian, but his other household is extremists. “You believe in science too much” and “cavemen never existed” are things he’s said in the last year. He’s a straight A very smart child, he’s just been brainwashed and I want to try to help him before it gets worse.
What kinds of shows, books, documentaries can I expose him too to make him think more critically about some of these things so he understands science is real and vaccines work?
He does get into Veritasium on YouTube, so I feel like that’s a step in the right direction for science and critical thinking.
Part of what is going on is probably survival mechanism. You have to question, does child feel safe to disagree at other house? Because that might be the cause of the entrenched views. Kid can’t question the beliefs, even away from there, because they would smell the doubt and it’s harder for kids to hold one belief and lie. Just make your home a safe space, and ask questions, so many questions. Let his mind hold those questions in the background and one day they’ll unlock his mind from that brainwashing. Just build him up, make your home a safe space for anything. Question your own beliefs, don’t just do that to his, ask questions about everything. Be open to saying this is just a belief, not fact. And that it’s still OK to believe, but knowing the difference between belief and fact and they can both exist. Don’t challenge the individual thoughts, teach him how to critically evaluate something, don’t just give him a fish, teach him how to fish. I wouldn’t challenge his beliefs at all, I would focus on other things and question those, avoid conclusions. Let those be unsaid, for now, or let him come to them. If he is criticising your beliefs, (saying you believe in science too much) you are a safe person. Just make sure they don’t reel him over there full time, keep your time, maybe even try and get an extra day or two
Why do all the scientists lie? What do they get? How do they get convinced to lie? Research who pays them, if it’s money. Ask as if you want to know, not to debunk. Be interested. Which sciences are fake? How do you tell which are fake? Who decides what’s true and fake? If you delve deeper into any of the things they don’t hold water, but don’t say that. Just let that uncover itself. Make space for him to have his beliefs and respect them. Arguing for him to abandon his beliefs will just push him away.
I think you gotta be more fun about it. Kids aren’t gonna care about books and documentaries, they’ll be so bored. I enjoyed science through magic school bus, jumpstart, Bill Nye, mythbusters. I don’t know what they have now, you might have to do some searching. Stand up comedy is also good for social critical thinking and it’s fun. Don’t bore your kid into the wrong path lol.
You helped to brainwash him by already In doctrinating him with religious dogma. You should start by teaching him critical thinking skills and help pull him out of that dumb bullshit.
The best way to combat biblical literalists is make them read and study the Bible. It’s a self-contradictory book of folk tales. Once that’s clear the rest will sort itself out
You can’t fight brainwashing by providing more facts. It doesn’t work. Brainwashing gives the victim mechanisms to reject new facts that contradict the false beliefs. The false beliefs become a part of a person’s identity, so it’s tied into self esteem and confidence. So that’s how you have to approach it: find ways to challenge the false beliefs that don’t also challenge their sense of self. For adults this is very difficult.
But for children, it’s easier. During the teen years children are trying on identities like they’re trying on clothes. Give you child a look at a good, comfortable identity. It should make them confident, give them a community they feel comfortable in, and not make enemies of the ones they love.
I find that scientific skepticism does this by giving people the tools to think rationally about the world, spot ways that the world tries to deceive them, and giving an understanding of why those deceptions are effective.
One of the ways I do this is “spot the lie” when an ad comes on. Virtually every ad has some lie in it, even if it’s small. Buying this brand of car will make a sexy person like me (nobody cares what you drive). Altria Group is altruistic (they kill millions with cigarettes). Adopting a pet today will make you happy (Not everyone can care for a pet, and sometimes it’s miserable). A price of $4.99 is basically $4 (it’s really $5). I practice this, talking about why the ads exist and why they are effective, the biases they tap into. Everyone is vulnerable to manipulation like that. And then I extended that to some of the videos my kids watch. Why are the Ninja Kidz playing with that toy the entire episode? Because they were paid to do it. It’s just another ad.
Then that skill pivots to other things. Religion behaves the same way, selling itself to people. Conspiracy theories do this as well. And sometimes other people are doing the advertising right to your face, and they may not even realize it.
In short, equip your kid with the best BS detector that you can, and then let them find their way.
Agreed. Story from my own experience… my dad once sent me to a religious retreat and I was totally eating it up. In hind sight I think it was just a convenient break for him. I approached him afterwards and told him how much I was feeling it. It had reinforced my beliefs strongly at the time. He then looked at me and said, “yeah, it’s all brain washing”. The whole weekend shattered then and there as I realized he was right. It wasn’t critical thinking that made me realize it was all shit, but by taking apart what they were doing to me and how it was distorting my perspective.
You combat this type delusion not with facts but in snapping a person to their senses as to how nonsensical their position is. Make them realize it themselves by pointing out small flaws in the method, not the message, and let the victim put it back together. There are kernels of truth in religious doctrine, but it’s usually covered in shit for some assholes agenda so it can be hard to just let go.
You put it exactly right - she’s been brainwashed by religious nonsense and bigotry her whole life, like so many people of the world. There’s no bigger form of child endangerment than being anti-vax, and this person should be reported to child protective services. She is a real danger to your kid.
I would not let my child anywhere near such a mentally ill person. She won’t believe she’s mentally ill, and probably will never get the help she sorely needs - but you can protect your own kid and show him that there are good people who trust science and want their kids to be healthy and well vaccinated.
I hope you will go out of your way to avoid this other family. Just the very childishly stupid belief that “cavemen never existed” would be enough to drive me away from this incredibly screwed up person and never want to have any affiliation with them ever again.
From the wording of the post and depending on where they’re located, this is a child that is a part of a legal custody arrangement. Removing the step-parent from the child’s life is not a simple thing that is within the power of OP unless the other parent can be convinced which seems unlikely.
They would need to go through the legal system and demonstrate that the child is in a clear and present danger in order to amend their current custody agreement. Ideological differences are not going to be enough for a court to agree to any changes except in the most extreme of cases. At least in the US.
I know, at least in my country, anti-vax indoctrination does count as clear and present danger, and while you probably wouldn’t outright get full custody, you could potentially get an injunction against anti-vax indoctrination.
Quickly looking over their history I’d be willing to bet they are US based and although I’d be happy if that were possible it most certainly is not. An injunction of that nature to censure “religious” speech, even on the slim chance it would be granted, is basically unenforcable here. They would get a slap on the wrist a few times and then maybe with enough evidence a less favorable custody percentage, but by that time a lot of the damage will have already have been done to the child. They’re at a pretty impressionable age.
Yeah, here, your rights to religiously indoctrinate your children are protected by our charter of rights. Anti-vax beliefs, on the other hand, certainly wouldn’t fall under that purview.
YouTube channels like Veritasium, Steve Mould, Kurzgesagt, SmarterEveryDay, or Hank Green are really good places to start. But you should also try to get him involved in hands-on things like science fairs, science clubs at school, visiting museums, etc.
The goal isn’t necessarily to get him to think critically right off the bat, but instead get him excited to learn and curious about how the world works. Manage that and the rest will inevitably follow. Also, have patience and don’t preach (not saying that you are, it’s just something I have experience with), there is no faster way to kill excitement than to make someone feel like they are forced to do something.
Especially in aparent / child relationship, arguing the points can be futile. You can calmly explain your point of view, but after that it becomes a power struggle.
Asking your kid to examine their beliefs and to treat others with respect is the job as a parent. The indoctrination is likely to backfire.
I would like to emphasize that not being argumentative also means not being angry. I think rational explanations cool-ly explained are heard far better than emotion laden diatribe.
Be the calm, cool voice of reason. Let the other side rage against the world.
You are not logged in. However you can subscribe from another Fediverse account, for example Lemmy or Mastodon. To do this, paste the following into the search field of your instance: !parenting@lemmy.world
Part of what is going on is probably survival mechanism. You have to question, does child feel safe to disagree at other house? Because that might be the cause of the entrenched views. Kid can’t question the beliefs, even away from there, because they would smell the doubt and it’s harder for kids to hold one belief and lie. Just make your home a safe space, and ask questions, so many questions. Let his mind hold those questions in the background and one day they’ll unlock his mind from that brainwashing. Just build him up, make your home a safe space for anything. Question your own beliefs, don’t just do that to his, ask questions about everything. Be open to saying this is just a belief, not fact. And that it’s still OK to believe, but knowing the difference between belief and fact and they can both exist. Don’t challenge the individual thoughts, teach him how to critically evaluate something, don’t just give him a fish, teach him how to fish. I wouldn’t challenge his beliefs at all, I would focus on other things and question those, avoid conclusions. Let those be unsaid, for now, or let him come to them. If he is criticising your beliefs, (saying you believe in science too much) you are a safe person. Just make sure they don’t reel him over there full time, keep your time, maybe even try and get an extra day or two
Why do all the scientists lie? What do they get? How do they get convinced to lie? Research who pays them, if it’s money. Ask as if you want to know, not to debunk. Be interested. Which sciences are fake? How do you tell which are fake? Who decides what’s true and fake? If you delve deeper into any of the things they don’t hold water, but don’t say that. Just let that uncover itself. Make space for him to have his beliefs and respect them. Arguing for him to abandon his beliefs will just push him away.
I think you gotta be more fun about it. Kids aren’t gonna care about books and documentaries, they’ll be so bored. I enjoyed science through magic school bus, jumpstart, Bill Nye, mythbusters. I don’t know what they have now, you might have to do some searching. Stand up comedy is also good for social critical thinking and it’s fun. Don’t bore your kid into the wrong path lol.
Sci show, minute physics, minute earth, cgp gray,
Did you know, kids who grow up with parents who disagree with each other learn critical thinking skills quicker than other kids.
You helped to brainwash him by already In doctrinating him with religious dogma. You should start by teaching him critical thinking skills and help pull him out of that dumb bullshit.
The best way to combat biblical literalists is make them read and study the Bible. It’s a self-contradictory book of folk tales. Once that’s clear the rest will sort itself out
I don’t think bible study is the best way to convince an eleven year old that vaccines work.
You can’t fight brainwashing by providing more facts. It doesn’t work. Brainwashing gives the victim mechanisms to reject new facts that contradict the false beliefs. The false beliefs become a part of a person’s identity, so it’s tied into self esteem and confidence. So that’s how you have to approach it: find ways to challenge the false beliefs that don’t also challenge their sense of self. For adults this is very difficult.
But for children, it’s easier. During the teen years children are trying on identities like they’re trying on clothes. Give you child a look at a good, comfortable identity. It should make them confident, give them a community they feel comfortable in, and not make enemies of the ones they love.
I find that scientific skepticism does this by giving people the tools to think rationally about the world, spot ways that the world tries to deceive them, and giving an understanding of why those deceptions are effective.
One of the ways I do this is “spot the lie” when an ad comes on. Virtually every ad has some lie in it, even if it’s small. Buying this brand of car will make a sexy person like me (nobody cares what you drive). Altria Group is altruistic (they kill millions with cigarettes). Adopting a pet today will make you happy (Not everyone can care for a pet, and sometimes it’s miserable). A price of $4.99 is basically $4 (it’s really $5). I practice this, talking about why the ads exist and why they are effective, the biases they tap into. Everyone is vulnerable to manipulation like that. And then I extended that to some of the videos my kids watch. Why are the Ninja Kidz playing with that toy the entire episode? Because they were paid to do it. It’s just another ad.
Then that skill pivots to other things. Religion behaves the same way, selling itself to people. Conspiracy theories do this as well. And sometimes other people are doing the advertising right to your face, and they may not even realize it.
In short, equip your kid with the best BS detector that you can, and then let them find their way.
Agreed. Story from my own experience… my dad once sent me to a religious retreat and I was totally eating it up. In hind sight I think it was just a convenient break for him. I approached him afterwards and told him how much I was feeling it. It had reinforced my beliefs strongly at the time. He then looked at me and said, “yeah, it’s all brain washing”. The whole weekend shattered then and there as I realized he was right. It wasn’t critical thinking that made me realize it was all shit, but by taking apart what they were doing to me and how it was distorting my perspective.
You combat this type delusion not with facts but in snapping a person to their senses as to how nonsensical their position is. Make them realize it themselves by pointing out small flaws in the method, not the message, and let the victim put it back together. There are kernels of truth in religious doctrine, but it’s usually covered in shit for some assholes agenda so it can be hard to just let go.
You put it exactly right - she’s been brainwashed by religious nonsense and bigotry her whole life, like so many people of the world. There’s no bigger form of child endangerment than being anti-vax, and this person should be reported to child protective services. She is a real danger to your kid.
I would not let my child anywhere near such a mentally ill person. She won’t believe she’s mentally ill, and probably will never get the help she sorely needs - but you can protect your own kid and show him that there are good people who trust science and want their kids to be healthy and well vaccinated.
I hope you will go out of your way to avoid this other family. Just the very childishly stupid belief that “cavemen never existed” would be enough to drive me away from this incredibly screwed up person and never want to have any affiliation with them ever again.
Sure you wouldn’t 🤣
From the wording of the post and depending on where they’re located, this is a child that is a part of a legal custody arrangement. Removing the step-parent from the child’s life is not a simple thing that is within the power of OP unless the other parent can be convinced which seems unlikely.
They would need to go through the legal system and demonstrate that the child is in a clear and present danger in order to amend their current custody agreement. Ideological differences are not going to be enough for a court to agree to any changes except in the most extreme of cases. At least in the US.
I know, at least in my country, anti-vax indoctrination does count as clear and present danger, and while you probably wouldn’t outright get full custody, you could potentially get an injunction against anti-vax indoctrination.
Sadly I doubt this is true of the US.
Quickly looking over their history I’d be willing to bet they are US based and although I’d be happy if that were possible it most certainly is not. An injunction of that nature to censure “religious” speech, even on the slim chance it would be granted, is basically unenforcable here. They would get a slap on the wrist a few times and then maybe with enough evidence a less favorable custody percentage, but by that time a lot of the damage will have already have been done to the child. They’re at a pretty impressionable age.
Yeah, here, your rights to religiously indoctrinate your children are protected by our charter of rights. Anti-vax beliefs, on the other hand, certainly wouldn’t fall under that purview.
YouTube channels like Veritasium, Steve Mould, Kurzgesagt, SmarterEveryDay, or Hank Green are really good places to start. But you should also try to get him involved in hands-on things like science fairs, science clubs at school, visiting museums, etc.
The goal isn’t necessarily to get him to think critically right off the bat, but instead get him excited to learn and curious about how the world works. Manage that and the rest will inevitably follow. Also, have patience and don’t preach (not saying that you are, it’s just something I have experience with), there is no faster way to kill excitement than to make someone feel like they are forced to do something.
Best advice I can offer is to ask questions whenever you hear something objectionable.
Child: “You like science too much.”
You: “Why do you think that?” or “Why do you say that?”
Asking them to explain what they are saying tells you more about what is really going on and can help them to consider why they think that way.
This guy is who I have in mind when talking about this subject. https://youtu.be/9gHmhObfbn4?si=xKaMUCh37q_UOxjo
I agree.
Especially in aparent / child relationship, arguing the points can be futile. You can calmly explain your point of view, but after that it becomes a power struggle.
Asking your kid to examine their beliefs and to treat others with respect is the job as a parent. The indoctrination is likely to backfire.
Maybe go to a museum. Hard to deny cavemen existed when you can look at their bones and see their tools right there in front of you.
A good bet is alternative media, things like kurzgesagt, verisitium or other science outreach programs.
The other thing is education, engage with his education, and teach him yourself to think critically.
And I hate to say it to say it, but religion conditions kids to brainwashing. Even if not extremists.
Feel comfortable pointing out flaws in Christianity and question them with him.
And lastly, try not to be argumentitive. You need to carefully tease him out of these beliefs, not destroy them.
That would feel like you are attacking him and will probably be counterproductive.
I would like to emphasize that not being argumentative also means not being angry. I think rational explanations cool-ly explained are heard far better than emotion laden diatribe.
Be the calm, cool voice of reason. Let the other side rage against the world.